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Claire, thank you for taking the time to post your response and also the interesting reference of Joseph Lumpkin.

There is more to your post than I can address here, but I do want to refer you back to my article titled "Why Enneagram Planets?" It explains why I start with the planets, NOT the signs, in my theory.

The astrological signs refer to characteristics and traits, and as such are very rich descriptors of how people behave. However the behavior itself is generated by the action of the planet.

I do believe that the elements provide very strong clues about personality, and that a preponderance or lack of a given element can have a major impact and even help determine Enneagram type. And of course the distribution of planets in sign is how we determine the balance of elements. Nevertheless in my theory it is the compromised integration of a particular planet that determines Enneagram type.

The proof is in the pudding-- I don't see how anyone could determine Enneagram type merely by looking at signs in the chart. It breaks down and the Enneagram disappears at that point and what you really have is astrology alone.

I see that both astrology and the Enneagram "work" to describe personality. My theory shows how they both have validity.

Thanks again for commenting and for your patience with my reply.


Oh dear, Andrea - that should probably have read type "Twelve" in the 5th House with Leo. I may have accidentally written "Eleven" in there twice on the list. (...another good reason not to stay up so late at night mulling over this stuff, huh? My mind starts going a little crossed-eyed after a while - lol!) Thanks :)


Hi Andrea, may I make one correction, please and perhaps a suggestion too? I believe Aquarius should actually be 6 and Libra 5 (not vice versa) :) Also, to see the picture even more clearly, it may be helpful to actually make a quick sketch of the astrological wheel itself with each of the 12 signs placed on the cusps of their natural houses (i.e. Aries at House 1, Taurus at 2 etc..) and then adding the enneatype numbers within the houses connected to the associated signs:

H.1 Aries (Eleven); H.2 Taurus (Nine); H.3 Gemini (Seven); H.4 Cancer (Two); H.5 Leo (Eleven); H.6 Virgo (One); H.7 Libra (Five); H.8 Scorpio (Three); H.9 Sagittarius (Twelve); H.10 Capricorn (Eight); H.11 Aquarius (Six); and H.12 Pisces (Four).

Then, once everything is in place, maybe just gaze at the "picture" for a while - meditating on the signs and associated house energies with each of the enneatypes placed within them - imagining too the "missing" fire element signs in relation to the already established types and also how the enneatypes begin to reveal both familiar and new patterns in relation to one another in the trines, squares, oppositions that they now form.

Can you see it too? I sure hope it's not just me... Claire


Hi Andrea, it's wonderful to see this website you've created and the exploration you're doing of the links between these two systems - Bravo! :) I wonder if it would be okay to offer a few of my own (5-ish) observations here? On the surface, assigning planetary energies to the enneatypes seems the natural approach (9 planets = 9 types), but perhaps this is more closely aligned to what astrologers do when assigning the planetary energies to the 12 signs of the zodiac in the form of rulerships (as well as of the house cusps). While this works well enough in itself for adding some texture, dimension and energy to the nature of the individual signs, I don't believe at the same time that any astrologer would strictly define the core meanings of the individual zodiac signs themselves according to their planetary rulerships alone. If they did, what would happen to signs like taurus and libra (under shared rulership by venus) or virgo and gemini (under shared rulership of mercury), for example? Whatever energy given to them by the shared ruling planet, in light of the very real differences between these zodiac signs in their individual definitions, could hardly be interchangeable or even harmonious (unless the planets themselves are schizophrenic by nature). Defining signs solely in terms of assigned planetary rulerships will never work perfectly anyway unless 12 unique planetary energies can be settled on to cover each sign individually. Instead of trying to continually find ways to force these same and equally ill-fitting planetary shoes onto the 9 enneatypes, perhaps its time to step back and take another look at the whole system, but this time only through the lens of astrologer's glasses. You must already know on an intuitive level that these two systems match up (why pursue it otherwise?) The real question then is why 9 core types and not 12 to begin with? Doesn't that seem a little suspicious in itself? If, as an astrologer (without prior expertise with the enneagram) you were challenged to arbitrarily "create" an addition of three core types to make an equal match up to the 12 signs of the zodiac, how would you go about it? Obviously, from an astrological standpoint the logical way would be to first separate the 9 types into triadic groupings. This has already been done, by the way (Riso's Personality Types): 2,3,4 represent the "feeling" group (2 being extroverted feeling, 3 least in touch and 4 as introverted) etc... In astrology, this would naturally translate directly to the 4 elemental groupings of The Water/Feeling Triad: Cancer/2; Scorpio/3; and Pisces/4. The Air/Thinking Triad: Aquarius/5, Libra/6 and Gemini/7 and The Physical/Earth Triad: Capricorn/8, Taurus/9, and Virgo/1. Fortunately, the challenge of figuring out what 3 additional types should be created to fill in the "missing" Fire/Inspiration elemental triad of this astrological picture may be easier to do than it would first appear. Have you read a book called: The Enneagram, by Joseph B. Lumpkin yet? You'll find no direct mention of astrology in there, but in reading his definitions of the core types - and in particular of the ones he assigns to types 10, 11 and 12 - see if you recognize the missing leg/triplicity fire sign grouping of Aries, Leo, and Sagittarius as he describes these types - (and beautifully too, I might add). No need for the addition of "wings" either - the core types become quite distinct once separated in this way. The truth, in fact might well appear even more lovely and elegant in its simplicity than we could have imagined otherwise. Perhaps check it out and see what you think anyway? Best wishes :) Claire


Hi Dennis

I did a lot of analysis on that one myself. The way I see it, Enneagram type 8 will indulge in their Plutonian drives, which is their "lust". The Saturn represents their "shadow" of SELF control. An 8 will use Saturn to control others, but will not impose SELF control. In fact they will sometimes accuse others of "controlling" them, in a kind of projection. I also think that a weak "inner" Saturn leads to feelings of inner vulnerability which a type 8 will not want to acknowledge. It is as if they have no inner structure to protect them, it is all a "show" of strength on the outside (when unhealthy).

As for type 9, it is true that some Nines will narcotize themselves with sex (Pluto) but what they are really asleep to is the power of Pluto to transform and to assert their own significance. I find that many nines are not so much afraid of anger as they are reluctant to tolerate feelings of passion which accompany Pluto. It kind of intimidates them, takes them out of their comfort level because they associate passion with "something being wrong". Eights on the other hand revel in it, will churn it up if they get bored!

Of course these two are neighbors and there are interesting mixes of 8/9 in terms of basic type and "wing". But there will be a basic type.
Thanks for your comment.


Why Pluton in 9 and Saturn in eigh and not the opposite ?
9- "Mediator and control" Afraid of Anger ?
8- "Power" - Sexuality -..

Just a feeling . I am just starting enneagramm - and during the training I have tried to find 'analogies' between these two system. I was like you except for these 2 .

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